A few days ago, Pat’s Fantasy Hotlist posted the first look from Warriors, the Tor Books anthology edited by George R. R. Martin and Gardner Dozois. The excerpt was from The Mystery Knight, which is the third novella written by George set in the Seven Kingdoms of his wildly popular A Song of Ice & Fire series.
I knew what was coming the moment Pat posted it.
As soon as The Mystery Knight excerpt went live, the comment area of the thread exploded into a frenzy of negativity and volatility. It seems any article devoted to George R. R. Martin—even a positive post like a first-look excerpt—brings out the utter worst in people. For whatever reason, fans who feel like George is cheating them inundated the thread. In mere hours, the comment area became a heated cesspool of erratic discourse.
I know that animosity and anger very well. I witnessed it first hand when I wrote the rebuttal article In Defense of George R. R. Martin last year.
Why these people couldn’t just view the fruits of George’s creative talent—the exact thing they have been looking forward to for more than a few years—and simply enjoy the excerpt is completely beyond the capacity of rationality.
Rather than get lost in the mayhem of that thread, I thought I would take the essence of what each person posted there, break it down, and invite a few other people to add their own assessments—whether they agree or disagree.
Not that George needs defenders. He doesn’t. He gave up trying to explain himself to his fans a long time ago when every attempt to illuminate why his novels took longer to complete than he thought only incensed a small minority of his readers all the more. No person needs that. That does not mean, however, that I should sit idly by and let falsehoods and misunderstandings continue when I see them. I call a spade a spade, after all.
To get a few different takes on the situation, I sent the same questions to Aidan at A Dribble of Ink, Jeff at Jeff’s Fantasy Review, and Adam Whitehead of The Wertzone. Definitely visit their websites and read what they think on this subject. I understand some people are going to be angry no matter what, no matter if their embittered beliefs are challenged and crumble before fact and evidence. That is their choice. It is my choice to not let those readers get away with it.
Let’s get to it.
1. Don’t George’s other pursuits–watching football, editing anthologies, traveling to other countries and conventions, blogging about his merchandise–hamper his completion of the new book?
I happen to think that vast majority of those who are angry that George has not completed A Dance of Dragons pin it on the other pursuits that the man has in his life.
While his hobbies do take up a certain amount of time in his life, they cannot be used against the man for not finishing his book. An example: I write five or six hours a day when I am working on a book. Anything I write after those hours is trash and not worth the time spent writing it. My day lasts about sixteen hours. What do I do with the other ten hours? The hobbies I pursue, of course. Watching sports. Going to the gym. Writing emails. Maintaining the websites I must. Shipping out signed books. These other pursuits help reinvigorate my writing batteries for the next day.
Every writer has those batteries. Every writer has the need to recharge them in order to get the best out of their craft. If those hobbies are taken away, the craft suffers dramatically.
The question is: Do his angry fans just want a book, even if the quality is low due to writing 15 hours a day and foregoing watching his Jets, or do those fans actually want George’s best effort?
Sadly, that question will come up later in the interview too.
It simply speaks to the idea that most readers have no comprehension what it means to write, or write a book, or write a book at the quality that George gives us.
2. Are readers of A Song of Ice & Fire entitled to be angry that George has missed his own created deadlines?
Most definitely yes! They can most certainly be angry with George. I believe he has missed his own deadlines several times over the last ten years and every time one of the deadlines comes and goes people get angry about it—to the point of obscene name calling.
Three things about this point though that people need to remember:
- 1) No one is angrier about missing deadlines than George.
- 2) Some of those missed deadlines have legitimate reasons behind them.
- 3) After George missed the first two deadlines, why did the fans keep trusting him?
Point #1 is self-explanatory. George share your grief. He mentions it all of the time on his blog. For Point #2, I’m not going to go into the details of it but you are more than welcome to read my article, In Defense of George R. R. Martin. As an example: So many fans believe that George took five years to write A Feast For Crows. He didn’t. It only took him 3 1/2 years to write the book they read. Point #3 is also self-explanatory. I feel one of the worst things about all of this is the lack of responsibility most fans are taking on.
That too, will come up later in the interview, I believe.
3. Is it unethical for George to write on his blog about his other merchandise opportunities when the majority of people visiting his website are only interested in A Dance With Dragons?
Not. At. All.
This is one of those hot points for me. I have read so many fans write that they are only interested in updates to A Song of Ice & Fire and, in their opinion, there is no reason for George to waste time writing about anything else on his blog. That sounds all fine and dandy, except these people forget two points:
- Many of George’s fans actually do love his other work and want to keep informed about it just as they want to be informed about Ice & Fire.
- George has a duty to notify his fans of his merchandising and other endeavors. Those companies go into business with him knowing that he draws a large group of readers to his blog every day. It is part of their marketing strategies.
As for the people who are only interested in A Dance With Dragons news, I often wonder if these people read other fantasy writers out there too?
4. Is it legitimate for a fan who has bought his previous books to criticize George since their money has helped his success?
A resounding NO!
And here’s why.
The purchase of a book gives the buyer one thing—access to the book and the story inside of it. It does not give them entitlement to anything other than that book. It does not give them entitlement over the author. It does not mean the author suddenly becomes the slave of the reader. As Neil Gaiman so eloquently put it, “George R. R. Martin is not your bitch.”
The purchase of the book merely means you get to read the contents between the two covers. That’s it. Nothing else.
I can hear people thinking out there. “But Shawn, I bought this book with the understanding I will get to read the conclusion to the series!”
Yeah, and you still might. George is still writing, at least as of two or three days ago. Here is where my comment about personal responsibility comes in. Most people who argue since they bought a book they are owed something seem to forget that they knew when they purchased the book that the series wasn’t done yet. Every person out there from the very beginning has known this. At the beginning, the series was to be a trilogy, so no one can say it was originally a stand alone that grew and those people who bought the first book back then got screwed. No, no, and no.
Instead, none of those people take responsibility for reading George early. I stopped at A Clash of Kings because I knew at that point it was going to take George three years to complete a book and there was no reason for me to become wrapped up in it. I made that choice. It is a choice I make with many of today’s authors.
I suggest to those readers who feel they are owed something for buying a book to look at themselves and take some responsibility for their own actions. They are at fault just as much as George is for not publishing books quicker.
5. Does a reader have the right to critique an author’s professional conduct simply because they have purchased a book by them?
Eh, this is a grey area one for me.
That George has been unprofessional, I agree. But not for what you think. Most people feel they are owed something by him. The fact of the matter is this: George has only been unprofessional to his publisher. The publisher assuredly had him under contract for finishing A Dance With Dragons earlier than February 1, 2010. George has broken that contract with the publisher.
Therefore, in my opinion, the only people who can bust George’s chops about professionalism are his editor, Anne Groell, and the president of Random House.
Everyone else? Nope.
6. Doesn’t George have an obligation to finish books in a timely manner so his fans don’t have to keep re-reading his previous books over and over again?
See the last part of my answer for question #4. It gets at personal responsibility for reading a series that is not yet finished.
7. Does George have writer’s block?
The comment about George having writer’s block comes up all of the time on the internet(s).
It is usually brought up by people who have no understanding of what writer’s block truly is.
I think Terry Brooks best described it. He says writer’s block is the inability of a writer to have thought their story through far enough to not get caught writing into a corner.
I go in depth about this in In Defense of George R. R. Martin. In short, George is a freewriter. When he sits down at his keyboard, he never knows where the story is going to take him. He doesn’t outline every character’s path to the conclusion. When a character goes down the wrong path, he usually doesn’t know it until weeks or even months of work have been put it. By that time it is too late. He has lost that time and he must start over. Starting over takes time too. This is why it takes George on average 3 1/2 years per book.
With A Dance With Dragons, he has written himself into a knot that he is trying to unravel in a way that works for what will come next. He has spoken of this knot several times on his blog. Last week he even shared that one of the chapters he had “finished” four or five times before is perhaps correctly written now.
The point I wish to make is this: George writes the same way he did 19 years ago when he began writing A Game of Thrones. He had a type of writer’s black back then. It isn’t going to change now. It is the same craft of writing that has given fans such enjoyment during the first four books. To decry that which has given such pleasure is hypocrisy.
8. Isn’t the best way to show our displeasure with George is to not buy A Dance With Dragons when it is published?
Yup. Exactly. That is your power as the consumer. If you are truly upset with him at taking five years to write Dragons—which is longer than it normally takes him—then your only recourse is to boycott his books.
Of course, I doubt those fans who are angriest at George will be able to stay away from buying the forthcoming book on the day it is published. Still, it comes down to personal responsibility again. Ironically, the people who are angriest are also their own worst enemies.
9. If it has taken George ten years to write the last two books, how long will it take him to write The Winds of Winter?
As I said in my previous article, it really only took George 3 1/2 years to write the book you all know as A Feast For Crows. It has taken him 5 years to write Dance.
That said, pegging how long it will take him to write Winds is difficult. Here is what I know. George is in the middle of his story, arguably the most difficult part of the tale to write. He has created the characters, set them in motion, and now they are being set up in a correct way to march toward the series conclusion. Like a chess match, it takes many of the right moves in the middle of the game to get the checkmate at its end. In Dragons, George is having to set up every character just the right way. The pivotal point of the series is now. It is why it is taking George longer than usual.
Once set into motion, those characters march to their destinies. I think George will have an easier time of writing The Winds of Winter than the last two books. I will say 3-4 years after Dragons is delivered, published, and its resultant tour finished.
I base this simply on the math of how long it took him to write the previous four books, which I talk about in the In Defense article.
10. Isn’t it insulting that George thinks he doesn’t owe his readers anything? Doesn’t he owe us, at the very least, the conclusion of the series since he is living off of the money that we paid him?
I spoke about this earlier. Two things: A book purchased gives the fan a right to said book, and said book only. Personal responsibility.
11. Has George ever apologized for the lateness of his last two books?
Repeatedly. If people think he hasn’t, they should probably go back and read his blog. No one is more upset about him and he says as much often.
12. Don’t readers have an obligation to be patient with a man who is arguably writing one of the best fantasy series of all time and wants it done right, one that will be read long after his grandchildren are gone?
George has been called the American Tolkien. The label is more fitting than most people even know. The Lord of the Rings is considered the masterwork of the fantasy genre. Look up how long it took Tolkien to write it, to get it right. Look up how many drafts it went through. This should give some kind of scale about why it is taking George so long to write Ice & Fire—and why its completion in the right way is so important to him and should be to the fans.
13. Do his other activities and hobbies like conventions, traveling, editing anthologies, and watching football actually help his writing?
Right back to the beginning of the interview. Read question #1 and its answer for the answer to this one.
That’s it for this interview. Definitely read what other bloggers have to say on the subject by visiting their websites: A Dribble of Ink, Jeff’s Fantasy Review, and The Wertzone.
If their answers aren’t up soon, I’m sure they will be.
Own a blog? Want to answer these questions too? Take them and send me a note that you’ve done so. I will link to your blog and keep you in mind for the next Blogger Interview next month!
More soon!
Ok Shawn… You either have no idea how advertising/marketing works, or you just want to make me look stupid….probably both huh? I would recommend you reading up, or taking classes on advertising/marketing it really is intellectually stimulating.
I’ve taken the liberty of reposting my first post, so we can talk about this in its entire context…
If you read his first post entitled: “Dancing” you notice the first thing he does is talk about it snowing outside, and then he immediately mentions Jon Snow. Then starts talking about snow falling again…
In the next paragraph he mentions that he’s going to switch to a Jon [Snow excluded] chapter the next day. He says Jon not Jon Snow because he wants you to forget about the snow now…GRRM moves on about finishing a chapter…blah, blah, blah…
Go back and read that first paragraph, and you’ll see that that is the hook…That’s what he wanted you to read. The reason why he wrote it this way is that he knows that everyone reads the first paragraph and then skims over the rest of the post, until you get to the final lines where it talks about him, “Writing, writing…” Your eyes do that involuntarily, and that’s why if your applying for a job the 1st and last paragraphs of your cover letter should list all you qualifications because everything else is skimmed over. That’s not to say that they don’t go back and reread it, but the first and last are always read…
Back to the first paragraph…notice how the sentence structure is different from the rest of the post? They’re short and choppy that’s because they resonate with people more so than long sentences. It’s why all great slogans whether they be for companies or politics are all just a couple words…Coke is it…You voted Obama because you want Hope and Change…You drink Maxwell House coffee because it’s Good till the last drop….You rent a car from Avis because We try harder….7-up is the UnCola… You eat Frosted Flakes because They’re Grrrreat! Get the point yet?
OK, now go back and read the first paragraph and the last line…. Admit it, your imagining George sitting at his computer, looking out the window watching the snow fall down while he’s working on A Dance with Dragons…Imagine, by the way is another strong advertising word because the word gets you to picture in your mind the message I want to convey.
On to post #2 entitled “A Good Day, With Snow”
He uses snow again. Where did we see snow last time? In the first paragraph of his last post. What was happening in the first paragraph? It was snowing…. Get the picture…
Of course, the meat of the post was a picture of the cover of aDwD. Nothing is more powerful than a visual aid. It automatically draws your eyes to it and conveys a message. What did it say next to the picture? “’nuff said” Short sentence. Skim to the end, and what does it say? Accomplished. The intended message was, “I finished the book!” See advertising tricks….
Then there was post #3 entitled “No, No, No”
Picture of angry typewriter. Visual. Now he plays the victim. George tries to give his fans an update and everyone overreacts. This is why he doesn’t update because no one understands what he’s talking about blah, blah, blah….
GRRM is not a stupid man, Shawn. I know you want to believe that he didn’t realize what peoples reaction would be when he made that post, but your wrong Shawn. GRRM knew exactly what he was doing…
There is the entire context of my argument. I walked you through it. I pointed out what he did, why he did it, and the reaction he wanted, and I gave examples too. So Shawn, don’t come back and tell me what he didn’t say….I know what he didn’t say, and I just explained to you why he said what he said…
The “Snow” post is a blank canvas that people can project their hopes onto. That’s what it is… So if your fans are always overreacting over everything you post about the subject, how can you believe that he was surprised by the reaction he got? You can’t! You would have to believe that his IQ was so low that you’d trip over it to believe that.
[i]If you are so sure in how he has treated you so badly, why keep reading him?[/i]
I don’t. I haven’t cracked the cover of any ASOIAF-related book since October of 2008.
[i]Why keep arguing against him on forums? I don’t understand.
This has to be the worst case of a codependent relationship I’ve ever seen.[/i]
I keep arguing because The Man keeps doing and saying things deserving of being called out. In your previous response, you mentioned that fans ‘in the know’ about the lack of update situation should share their information with new fans. That’s what I do, only my version of it – I share my information about what I see as The Man’s true nature.
And, I freely admit, I do this in part because I feel betrayed by Martin. For about eight years, I held him in as high an esteem as I did his series. From early 2008 to mid-2009, he repaid that trust by treating me and all other readers who had doubts and dared express them on his blog like dirt he couldn’t stand the sight of, except when came the time to buy the latest piece of merchandise he was peddling. The wrath of the wronged, and all that. Mind you, I don’t go about expressing it by ranting or spamming mindlessly, but by posting what I hope are coherent arguments backed up by evidence when necessary.
If you saw an innocent person being manipulated and exploited by a callous snake-oil salesman who’s already tried to do the same to you, wouldn’t you try to at least offer the potential victim some warning about what he/she’s getting into? That’s what I try to do where The Man is concerned.
[i]That’s a real case scenario of George not doing the very thing you are accusing him of.[/i]
The example you provided is really mild, IMO – the worst thing that poster did was call Martin inconsistent. I would hardly call that ban-worthy. And I have proof my own backing up what I said about the double standard for rude sycophants. In the (in)famous February 2009 Dance ‘update,’ one can read the following right on the first page of comments:
Bwarman wrote:
Chin up…
Thank you Mr. Martin.
Your works are amazing, and I can only imagine the frustration from the direct emails, but I believe genius needs its time.
So take it. You haven’t let me down with an Ice & Fire book yet, and I trust your method. There will always be curmudgeons, whiners, and the impatient. I’m sorry to hear that the supportive haven’t been louder than the destructive.
Again, thank you for your hard work.
Wyldemusic wrote:
It’s done when it’s done.
The only concern that should be at hand (aside from Bantam wanting to get it out for people to buy) is that if the TV series goes ahead, it doesn’t run right over you while you’re working towards the end of the book series.
Seriously…fuck ‘em all. What counts is what you’re doing with the work.
Those comments are also still there, the posters weren’t banned and didn’t receive so much as a warning. Where’s that accountability you mentioned? I’m positive that had similar comments come from detractors, the banhammer would have fallen on them fast and hard.
@ Craterus:
“I’ve heard you and others use the second world war and the fact he wasnt teaching during that period as if it was a creative sabbatical that Tolkien was taking. It beggars belief.”
But you said he couldn’t write because there were bombs falling on his head (there weren’t). I pointed out that your argument was weak because it was untrue. And now you shift the goalposts around. Poor arguing technique.
“That CS Lewis wrote faster than Tolkien should not mean that we can compare MArtin and Tolkien situation just because others in Martin’s generation can write faster. It’s truly baffles me how you guys can use this comparison…”
Well, you made the point that back in the days before word processors people just took a long time to write books, so the fact that Tolkien had to write 1200 pages of LORD OF THE RINGS by hand and then type it up afterwards was the reason for it taking 17 years to write and publish. The fact that Lewis wrote the 1400 pages of the complete CHRONICLES OF NARNIA series in about eight years shows this to be an incorrect assessment.
The Tolkien comparison is indeed somewhat unsatisfying because LotR is now finished and been out for 50 years, whilst ADWD obviously hasn’t, whilst LotR wasn’t the fifth book in a long-running series and ADWD is, but in terms of the two authors’ writing techniques (the ‘waves coming up the beach’ approach used by both) and the structural issues faced by both books (Tolkien struggled with aligning the timelines of the Frodo/Sam storyline, the Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli timeline and the Merry/Pippin one, whilst GRRM is struggling with aligning the Westeros/Wall/Meereen/characters in transit story arcs), the comparisons are both clear and valid.
Saying, “No, they are not,” with nothing to back up that statement is simply a wholly inadequate response.
Silent and others: “http://grrm.livejournal.com/69850.html?thread=5198554″
You are right. I don’t see anything there. I see a quote from a man who enjoys being read. If you ask any author out there what they enjoy most about writing, they will either say it is the writing or it is seeing the joy that their writing brings once the book is no longer their own.
Writing is tough. That’s what I see Martin saying. Watching other people read his books, on the other hand, is an incomparable joy.
You of course take his comment to a dark side. I take it to mean something completely different. Perhaps more valid, since I write for a living. I hope some of you will read that comment from a writer’s point of view.
By the way, he wouldn’t be a writer if he didn’t love it. Writers who don’t love it burn out really fast.
I can see I’m never going to win any of these arguments, even though my points — as a reader and a writer, who sees both sides more clearly — will never be given due consideration. Or if they are, it is fleeting and spun aside.
I understand exactly why each of you are upset. Every one of you. I just don’t agree in your assessments. I don’t feel jaded because I took responsibility and stopped reading the man due to the length it takes him to write a book — a length of time that has been fairly consistent since Thrones, I might add, with the exception of Dance which is a year late in my opinion. Since I don’t feel jaded, though, I’m also not biased at all. The negativity that is inside each one of you is biasing your read of every post he makes. I simply don’t agree that that is a good thing.
The snake oil peddler comment made me laugh though. A snake oil peddler peddles something that isn’t needed. It has no value whatsoever to anyone, for anyone.
Every single thing that George offers on his site is needed – to someone. He has other fans who are interested in his anthologies and his signed books and the miniatures and what have you. Just because it doesn’t meet your fancy doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid. That hardly makes him a snake peddler. In fact, it doesn’t at all.
So you got me with the relentlessness of your assault. You however did not change my opinion, but rather solidified it.
I do have a question for you guys though.
Once Dance is published and out, will you guys be saying these same things when Winds takes 3+ years to write? Despite knowing it will take that long, will you be saying he is late even then?
By the way, I would love to continue these discussions, perhaps on the Forum of Suvudu where the posts won’t disappear so rapidly.
Talk soon!
I am rewriting my book for one of Stephen King’s agents, and I should be done in two weeks. That has to be my first priority, not arguing with intelligent people. Arguing with idiots is easier, but you guys — takes me an hour to write out a response. That’s time I should be spending on my future. haha
I’ll let Adam and others have their fun now.
By the way, is the Captcha working right now?
“8. Isn’t the best way to show our displeasure with George is to not buy A Dance With Dragons when it is published?”
Not interested in debating. Will vote with my wallet and download “Dance” and the HBO-series from internet torrents. Not one cent from me anymore.
That’s a very nice way to snuff out the debate Shawn. Essentially, playing the victim.
And of course your a writer (re-writing a book for one of Steven Kings agents no less!) so that makes some of your points more valid then ours!
Oh, and since your re-writing a book for Steven Kings agent, it seems rather apt to leave a quote from the Great Man himself, which is definietly relevant here:
‘An author who is taking 7 years to write a novel isn’t thinking deep thoughts. He’s just dicking about’
Actually since George published ASOS in 2000 he hasnt delivered a complete book. FFC was supposed to have DWD in it as well, so he published FFC in 2005 saying it was half of what FFC originally was supposed to be and that DWD was actually the second half of FFC and the series went from 6 projected volumes to 7. So right now people are waiting for the second half of Feast. Sum total of a decade of work from Martin ? 1/2 a book.
I’m not angry though my reading interests have changed so much in 10 years. Most people complain about the quality of FFC but what they don’t realize is that the quality is the same, it is they who’ve changed recognizing poor writing when they see it because they have grown older and sharper.
There is little point me doing the bullet point summary of the issues now but I will certainly respond to Adam’s comments
Adam said: “But you said he couldn’t write because there were bombs falling on his head (there weren’t). I pointed out that your argument was weak because it was untrue. And now you shift the goalposts around. Poor arguing technique”
My response: OK, I was a touch hyperbolic when I said he had bombs falling directly on his head. Clearly none actually landed on him (thought that would have been quite clear).
Tolkien had a full time job as a professor: You guys argue that even though he did have a full time job, because of the War he actually had some time off so could spend all that time writing just like Martin (theoritcally) could. My point is that the period when England was at war would have been an extremely stressful time and if Martin was in the same boat you wouldn’t expect him to be writing much. (remember the Tolkien-Martin comparison is something you guys came up with)
Adam said “Well, you made the point that back in the days before word processors people just took a long time to write books, so the fact that Tolkien had to write 1200 pages of LORD OF THE RINGS by hand and then type it up afterwards was the reason for it taking 17 years to write and publish. The fact that Lewis wrote the 1400 pages of the complete CHRONICLES OF NARNIA series in about eight years shows this to be an incorrect assessment”
My response: So because one author can publish fast back in the day, that means all should have been able to do at the same speed?? Again the Martin –Tolkien comparison is your invention, if Martin had to work in the same way Tolkien did, how many books do you think he would have published? The answer is of course we can never know.. another reason why the comparison is so flawed its makes those who use it look foolish.
Adam said : “The Tolkien comparison is indeed somewhat unsatisfying because LotR is now finished and been out for 50 years, whilst ADWD obviously hasn’t, whilst LotR wasn’t the fifth book in a long-running series and ADWD is, but in terms of the two authors’ writing techniques (the ‘waves coming up the beach’ approach used by both) and the structural issues faced by both books (Tolkien struggled with aligning the timelines of the Frodo/Sam storyline, the Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli timeline and the Merry/Pippin one, whilst GRRM is struggling with aligning the Westeros/Wall/Meereen/characters in transit story arcs), the comparisons are both clear and valid”
My response: We understand how Tolkien wrote his books because they have been studied for so long. We really have no idea, apart from throw-away comments about gardening ,about how Martin writes his yet. Sure there are structural issue in both stories, how is that different from 100 (sorry to be hyperbolic again) other stories that have been written over the years. Just because Martin is struggling with his timeline, and so did Tolkien does not mean they can be compared.
I will concede one point. If Martin ever finishes this series (not just Dance) and it is done with the excellence of his early work THEN and only then can you start the comparison between Tolkien and Martin.
Adam said: “Saying, “No, they are not,” with nothing to back up that statement is simply a wholly inadequate response.”
My response: I don’t think I’ve ever just said “no they are not” without some argument backing it up. I have certainly seen the “Martin is the American Tolkien” marketing spiel plenty of times without any substance behind it though
Shawn said: “Once Dance is published and out, will you guys be saying these same things when Winds takes 3+ years to write? Despite knowing it will take that long, will you be saying he is late even then?”
By asking this question it shows that you have not paid any attention to anyone else’s points sorry Shawn.
If Martin says on the last page of a half written Dance, that Winds will be out in 12 months time and then continues to say “i’ll be done in x months, but in the meantime buy my crap” and then takes 4+ years to release it… i won’t be surprised but surely it will be fair to say its late.
Just to make one point as clear as possible for you. It’s not how long its taken George to write this books thats the problem.. its his behaviour whilst he’s writing it that has been annoying and disrespectful.
“So because one author can publish fast back in the day, that means all should have been able to do at the same speed?”
No. That was how your argument came across. You said that one of the reasons that Tolkien took a long time to write LotR is because he didn’t have access to modern word-processors. This argument is a fallacy because other writers at the time wrote longer works far more quickly. In fact, they still do. Robert Rankin is famous for writing his novels longhand in exercise books and bashing out 400-page novels in just a few months regardless. Neal Stephenson wrote the entire, 3,000-page BAROQUE CYCLE in longhand in just four or five years or so without using a word processor. Having a word processor doesn’t really speed up the writing process a lot over longhand, only over typewriters, and Tolkien didn’t commit anything to a typewriter until he’d finished the book in longhand (a couple of early chapters he typed up in draft and sent to his publishers for approval aside).
The reasons for Tolkien taking a long time were down to a mixture of structural issues, writing problems and actual, by his own admission, writer’s block.
“We really have no idea, apart from throw-away comments about gardening ,about how Martin writes his yet.”
We have plenty of blog entries, interviews and so forth to go on. We have his autobiographical essays in DREAMSONGS about his writing technique, in particular, how his novel-writing methodology is derived from his experience in short stories, which I think is another explanation for the lateness of the last two (or, more accurately, the last one and the work-in-progress) volumes. Writing a short story over a few weeks and then polishing it for a few weeks seems to have been transferred to writing ASoIaF, spending weeks on one chapter, weeks more polishing it and then moving onto the next one. Repeat that for 70-odd chapters and then consider that every change to one chapter will likely trigger changes and rewrites to another, and you have the recipe for very long writing periods indeed.
“Just because Martin is struggling with his timeline, and so did Tolkien does not mean they can be compared.”
Well, clearly if both are having timeline issues, of course they can be compared and contrasted, as both can be compared to Jordan and Erikson, who have also both had major problems in this department as well.
“I have certainly seen the “Martin is the American Tolkien” marketing spiel plenty of times without any substance behind it though”
I’ll agree with this. The closest thing to an American Tolkien regarding issues of popularity, some of the themes involved, the creation of invented languages (if nowhere on the scale of Tolkien) and also the high fantasy set-up (unlike the ‘low’ fantasy, historically-derived nature of ASoIaF) is Robert Jordan’s WHEEL OF TIME. Tad Williams’ MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN may also be a more valid comparison due to its slightly more formal language and its complete (although still gargantuan) status. I think Martin is doing something somewhat different to those works, although still influenced and, in the case of Tolkien and Williams, inspired by them.
Thank you all for an intelligent debate. I’ve also made the points I wanted to, so I will bow out now unless something else I want to write about comes up.
Shawn, good luck with the rewrites and the agent!
Adam said: Having a word processor doesn’t really speed up the writing process a lot over longhand, only over typewriters, and Tolkien didn’t commit anything to a typewriter until he’d finished the book in longhand (a couple of early chapters he typed up in draft and sent to his publishers for approval aside).
The reasons for Tolkien taking a long time were down to a mixture of structural issues, writing problems and actual, by his own admission, writer’s block.
My response: Well there you go, we can’t compare Martin and Tolkien because Martin has never once admitted to writers block! But in all seriousness, we’re going to go round in circles about this I think. Your examples of Rankin and Stephenson have nothing to do with the Tolkein Martin Comparison. Though I would agree in general that having a word processor doesn’t necessarily speed up the writing process. In the specific example I am arguing against here, ie the Martin-Tolkien one.. I say that Martin would be much much slower in publishing if he had to long hand his novels first, especially as he admits to re-writing so much, and I believe Tolkiens would have been speeded up with a modern PC because he could have kept all his research much more accessible (for one eg). When it comes to it, the only two authors that we should be discussing in this argument are Tolkien and Martin because they are the two you guys are always comparing. What any other Author can or can’t do is beside the point and you’re being deflective bringing them up.
Adam said: We have plenty of blog entries, interviews and so forth to go on. We have his autobiographical essays in DREAMSONGS about his writing technique, in particular, how his novel-writing methodology is derived from his experience in short stories, which I think is another explanation for the lateness of the last two (or, more accurately, the last one and the work-in-progress) volumes.
My response: Well, I for one don’t believe to much of what he says in his blog but that’s beside the point. If we are to take his essays in Dreamsong as wrote, them Martin’s career is also “littered with the corpses of dead series”.. doesn’t give you too much hope for ASOIAF does it. But again that’s beside the point. The simple fact is we do know much more about Tolkiens methods than we do Martins, until martins work has been studied for a long time that will always be the case… again my point is that its hard to compare two authors techniques when they are in the same generation, its impossible when they are so far apart as Martin and Tolkien.
Adam said: Well, clearly if both are having timeline issues, of course they can be compared and contrasted, as both can be compared to Jordan and Erikson, who have also both had major problems in this department as well.
My response: OK, I’ll concede for arguments sake that you can compare and contrast particular issues that two authors may deal with. But that’s not what you guys do. When you break your argument down to first principles you say “Tolkien took many decades to write his series – Martin is taking many decades to write his series: Therefore its OK for Martin to be as delayed as he likes, and he can behave however he likes during that delay because Tolkien took a long time and look how good his novels have turned out”
In a nutshell that’s what you and Shawn (plus others) are postulating.. It’s baffling. One has nothing to do with the other.
Adam said: “ I’ll agree with this. The closest thing to an American Tolkien regarding issues of popularity, some of the themes involved, the creation of invented languages (if nowhere on the scale of Tolkien) and also the high fantasy set-up (unlike the ‘low’ fantasy, historically-derived nature of ASoIaF) is Robert Jordan’s WHEEL OF TIME. Tad Williams’ MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN may also be a more valid comparison due to its slightly more formal language and its complete (although still gargantuan) status. I think Martin is doing something somewhat different to those works, although still influenced and, in the case of Tolkien and Williams, inspired by them.”
My response: Well something we can agree on at least. Doesn’t seem as much fun to respond when we agree though!